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INTERVIEW WITH JORGE MASETTI
By Xavier Utset
Xavier Utset: The subject of the De Laguardia brothers and General Ochoa generated a lot of global reaction. They were accused of drug trafficking and corruption. Were the charges of corruption completely false?
Jorge Masetti: You also should ask, what is corruption? If by corruption you mean being a part of a State or a party or any organization that calls itself Egalitarian even though equality doesn't exist, then yes, they were corrupt. But then you have to question the whole system. That same system cannot judge them. In Cuba, corruption is also classified as an individual thinking for him/herself. You have to remember that for Communists, hypocritically enough, being corrupt means having a bourgeois attitude. In other words, living a little better, or having a nice home. Then we have to say that humanity is corrupt because no one wants to live in poverty. For me, the only hypocrisy that exists is the one that exists in that system.
XU: Given the tight connection between your father and Che Guevara, professional as well as intimate, there inevitably arises a question: Did you ever know Guevara when you were a child? What was your impression of him?
JM: Well, he died when I was still very young. In other words, I don't really have a strong opinion of him. Naturally, your conception of him is one that I know after a difficult adolescence. The reason being that the Argentinean Guerrilla warfare, in which my father died, is the first that was lead by Guevara overseas, or from Cuba. That was the first guerrilla warfare that El Che began in Latin America. However, in all honesty, perhaps because of my anarchic spirit, I've never idolized man, I've always turned away from false Saints. Although, it s true that politically, there is a coincidence. All that talk of the liberation of Latin America through the "Marxist-Leninist" ideal was professed by both of us. But, that cannot be translated as admiration for someone. I've always rejected the idolatry of man. That's why El Che never interested me as a person.
XU: So then, can you can affirm without doubt, that your involvement with guerrilla warfare in Latin America is because of your own convictions, or is it the cause of the inertia brought on by your personal circumstances?
JM: Well, there are always multiple reasons that drive a man to do certain things. When someone tells me that they are doing something out of love for their country or out of a sense of Patriotism, I have to say that I believe that that's about 10% true.
Now, let's see what makes up the other 90%. For example, in my case, it weighs heavily that Latin America is one of the hot backdrops of the Cold War, where I already have a predetermined place. On the other hand, I've always had a bit of social sensibility, without which, no one can develop any kind of political activity. Add to that the possibility that I had an urge to lead a clandestine life, on the margin of how other men live, transcending the world in a very different and original manner. These are, perhaps, the basic reasons of why I participate in the world of guerrilla warfare.
XU: There are few people that doubt that in Cuba, a fundamental factor of power is the cult around the personality of Fidel Castro. How does this situation relate to your disdain for idolatry?
JM: In all honesty, I used to have a lot of fun with this in Cuba. I thought it was so ridiculous. I remember listening to him once and thinking, "this guy wouldn't make it in Argentinean militia because all he does is talk nonsense."
XU: You don't think he's a good orator?
JM: I think he speaks well towards one section of the Cuban population. At least, he used to, because I think that lately his discourses are so empty that it's not even enough to attract anyone's attention. In any case, from an intellectual or academic view, his speeches are very poor, quite frankly. It is true, though, that Castro has always attracted the intellectuals of Europe. For them, he has been the personification of the idea they had of the "good savage", an idea which, in some states, still exists.
XU: Do you feel any type of remorse for taking part in guerrilla warfare?
JM:Listen, I don't think that anyone can feel bad about, or criticize themselves for taking part in a fight against a dictatorship. Moreover, I criticize myself for all that I didn't do, not for what I did do. If what I did in political terms, is viewed as right or wrong is up to the historians to decide, not me. I think that fighting against any kind of dictatorship is right. It is important to integrate the Latin-American guerrilla warfares into its proper place in the Cold war. That way, we can see that what was once classified as "terrorists acts" was actually a reaction on behalf of the younger generation against an oppressive military force. Naturally, soldiers and guerrillas alike responded to the call of the Cold war and stationed themselves in different camps.
XU:Was your decision to participate in the guerrilla warfare in Argentina personal, or can it be attributed to Cuban politics?
JM: It was totally personal. I participated independently of the Cuban government. When I left Cuba, I was still an adolescent and, in any case, a marginal adolescent within the system.
XU: Was that marginality due to political motives?
JM: Absolutely not. Marginal, in the "good" sense of the word, in the re-establishment of marginality.
XU: Which means?
JM: Not to accept anything. To be completely anarchic. There was no type of political inequity, I was still a child. I don't believe too much in people who say: "ever since childhood, you could see the patriotic spirit in him/her." That's a lie.
XU: And during your adolescence in Cuba, didn't you have to join the Pioneers?
JM: Look, in Cuba you're a Pioneer like you're a Boy Scout anywhere else. Every kid that went to school had to be a Pioneer and be in the CDR. You can't deny that there is a power there that has idealized everything. But just as there is a power that has idealized everything, the people have disparaged everything. What I'm saying is that the people have learned to incorporate those ideals into their daily lives as if it were propaganda from McDonalds. P>
XU:You've also fought in Nicaragua. How do you transfer your actions in Argentina to the Sandinista guerrillas?
JM: Well, towards the late '70's, I had to exile myself to Europe because our group had been weakened and almost destroyed by the military regime. We tried to reorganize ourselves there, but what happened to us is what happens to a great part of the Latin-American Leftists: we began to let ourselves be divided over and over again until ultimately, there was no more "group". I joined the most radical group with respect to the armed warfare. This is now around 1978, when the war started in Nicaragua. A few others and myself decided to go and fight in Nicaragua, for no other reason other than we thought it would be the best "schooling" we could receive in order to return and fight in Argentina. .
XU: All of this always happened independently of the Cuban government?
J.M.: Yes, of course. I wasn't tied to the regime at that time. However, we of course met up with the Cubans when we arrived in Nicaragua. One of the men that were there was Antonio De La Guardia. It was precisely upon the proposal of the Cubans that, after the Sandinista victory, we started to work with Nicaraguan Intelligence.
XU: And then you began relations with the Castro regime?
JM: My relationship with the Cubans always had a type of independence, perhaps due to my anarchic spirit. It's true that every time that we needed connections to go to Guatemala, El Salvador or wherever, we would rely on the Cubans, who were the ones that had relationships with everybody. Aside from that, as I said, the relationship was not very strong. The only period where I worked directly for Cuba was from 1980 to 1983 when I was in the Cuban embassy in Mexico, keeping up relations with the Latin-American revolutionary movement. I was also in Angola in 1988, working with Antonio De La Guardia, trying to put up a commercial business.
XU: Did you actively participate in the war in Angola?
J.M.: No, during that time I was already inactive with regards to any type of guerrilla movement, especially that of the Cuban regime. If I was convinced of anything, it was that Cuba was not a good political role model for Latin-America. I was firmly convinced of that when I returned to Cuba in 1986, seeking medical assistance due to an accident I had, and met up with some old friends. What I found was a frustrated group, castrated by the system. It was at that moment that I saw the need to disassociate myself from that system. I would only be able to do this in exchange for the all the information I had about the guerrilla wars. Naturally, without implicating anyone. I'm not interested in causing problems for anyone except Castro.
XU: Why such hatred for Fidel Castro? Ultimately, you didn't live in Cuba very long did you?
JM: Listen, my hatred towards Fidel Castro is due fundamentally to the fact that I consider him a fraud, a thief of illusions.
XU: More of a fraud than any other dictator?
JM: Certainly. Look, the difference is clear. If you are part of the Popular Movement then you know that the dictator is against you. In this case, the same dictator claims to be boss, the Popular Movement and the Revolution all at the same time. This is why the classification of "thief of illusions" is just.
XU: The Ochoa case of 1989 touches you directly: Your wife's father is charged with corruption. How does the whole process affect you?
JM: It personally affects me because for the first time, I see the suffering of a close family member. I saw the absurdity that it became. These men were being judged for following orders. The trial was truly disgusting. In one way or another, it can be understood that a State will do certain things in order to defend itself. Every country does it. In the United States, you have Oliver North. However, I see that Oliver North still goes around doing conferences and speaking through various means of the media. The difference is that in Cuba, you are executed and declared a traitor. The trial was a circus. I think the Europeans phrased it best: It was the last Stalin-like process outside of its time.
XU: Are you also of the opinion that Ochoa was a political adversary of Castro?
JM: I think it's an exaggeration to classify Ochoa as such. I think that it was possible for him to be a political adversary in the future, but Fidel anticipated that potential opposition. It's true that Ochoa had power such as has never been seen outside of the government dome. He responded to an important level of discontent existing in the high spheres of power. But, when the moment of judgment came, Ochoa still didn't have that ability to harm Castro.
XU: And I assume that you think that that is the reason why he is judged and sentenced?
JM: That's not what I think. That's what I'm convinced of.
XU: Ochoa seemed discontented?
JM: He seemed so constantly. But I think he was that way out of a question of acquired right. You have to understand that he was a man that spent little time in Cuba. He was in Venezuela, Ethiopia, Nicaragua, and Angola. Once he returns to Cuba, he believes that he was the right t voice his opinion due to his time served on the battlefield. From the exterior, it always seemed as if he had to make certain important decisions on his own. He mistakenly thought that he would be able to do so in his own country and he even said so in the trial.
XU: What made you leave Cuba?
J.M.: Disgust. The only thing I was able to feel in the year and a half that we spent there was total disgust towards everything. Including myself for being tied to the regime in one way or another.
XU: Do you live in Paris because you want to, or out of some type of obligation?
JM: Well, France was the only country that accepted our papers for a permanent stay after we left Cuba. The United States denied us, obviously. But in any case, we live there because we like it. France has a very open society and they helped us out a lot when we arrived. We are very happy there.
XU: What do you do now, in Paris?
JM: Well, I've had the opportunity to work for the press, above all else. Aside from that, I've done a few things for the cinema, I've written a book, I was painting houses for a whilebut in general, I've done things that have interested me, creative things. These activities have given me the peace and introspection necessary for me to see what had happened to me. Also, living in Paris has allowed me to do that as well.
XU: Do you still consider yourself a "leftist"?
JM: Well, I think at this point, the question is: What does it mean to be a "leftist"? If you consider being leftist to men being a part of the social movement, where you understand that power is bad, then I do consider myself a leftist. If you define being a leftist as an element that looks for power, even if it's to accomplish good, to later respond to the reasons of State, then I'm not interested. I don't believe that the leftists should be in power. I believe in the constant leftist opposition. In any case, I believe that in this day and age, to continue to speak of "left" or "right" is to continue to speak in terms of the Cold war.
XU: There are people who say that there are cases of "disappearances" in Cuba. Do you believe that this is true?
JM: I don't know of any cases. It wouldn't surprise me. I don't think that they had the massive amount of cases such as in South Latin-America, because the repression in Cuba is different. I think that you can talk about concentration camps existing in Cuba. When you hear the testimonies of ex-prisoners like Mario Chanes de Armas, Ernesto Diaz Rodriguez, Angel de Fana and so many other, you ask yourself: What legal guarantees did these people have there? I think that type of relationship that these people have with the current regime, is the same type of relationship that those cases of disappearances had with the dictators of South Latin-America. The arbitration of the State was constant. Therefore, to speak of whether or not there are cases of disappearances in Cuba is of little importance. In what category can you place someone who doesn't have any legal guarantee for years?
XU: What is your opinion regarding foreign investments in Cuba?
JM: I think that they are profoundly immoral because they are not based on any type of national regulation. Any adventurous capitalist comes along to a country where he/she knows that there is no threat of a strike, or of any kind of a syndicate, or any back-talk, and he/she can do with the Cuban workers what they would never do with workers in their own countries. I think that's immoral and expropriate. I think that the day that Cuba has been liberated, the workers will have to be indemnified for everything that's been done to them, which the foreign capitalists have been accomplices to.
Copyright © 1998 yara!